The Color Wheel’s Finely Spun Comic Gold for Interview Magazine
ALEX ROSS PERRY AND CARLEN ALTMAN IN THE COLOR WHEEL. FILM STILL COURTESY OF SEAN PRICE WILLIAMS.
by Julia Bozzone
Alex Ross Perry’s new film The Color Wheel drolly captures the mood of a generation caught in deferred adulthood. The movie, which stars and was co-written by Perry and Carlen Altman, tells the story of a dysfunctional brother-sister relationship. Altman plays J.R., an increasingly lost twentysomething beauty, who forces her younger brother Colin (Perry) to join her on a weekend road trip, so they can move her out of her professor-turned-lover’s apartment. The visually striking film, which was shot on low-contrast black-and-white 16mm film, is filled with downbeat witticisms and loopy humor.
Perry, 26, is a rising independent filmmaker. In 2009, he won best foreign film at the Melbourne Underground Film Festival for his debut film, Impolex, which was partly inspired by Thomas Pynchon’s 1973 novel Gravity’s Rainbow. Altman, 27, is a comedian, jewelry designer, and actress, who appeared in Ry Russo-Young’s 2009 film You Won’t Miss Me and in fellow Oberlin grad Lena Dunham’s web series Tight Shots.
Two days after winning best narrative feature at the Chicago Underground Film Festival and receiving a rave review from The New Yorker, we met at a café in Greenpoint, Brooklyn, to talk about the film. We began by discussing the idea that prompted them to make a movie about two people who once shared something, but have since grown apart.
ALEX ROSS PERRY: I just think there’s something really, seriously wrong that upsets me and disgusts me about a certain generational malady that is sweeping people in their late twenties and early thirties right now. I feel like a lot of people refuse to try. I had these questions for myself. And what I wanted to explore for is, why was it so important to me to try?
CARLEN ALTMAN: Yeah.
PERRY: When we met, I had just finished my first movie [Impolex], which I made when I was 23. And I was excited — that was something that I wanted to do for 10 years of my life. Pretty soon afterward, I started to feel very disconnected from people that I went to film school with, who I always thought would join me in quitting their jobs and making these movies. I felt like there was this very specific, somewhat alarming phenomenon of people that I knew —
JULIA BOZZONE: [laughs] — Somewhat alarming —
PERRY: It is alarming because these are people who I, in some cases, had hours of beautiful conversation with, regularly, about all these great things we were going to do! It’s not just people who wanted to do the same things as me. It’s people who I felt were really enthusiastic about something. I assumed that, like me, they would do it as soon as possible. I don’t really understand why you wouldn’t. You’re young, it’s a time when you can still fall back on something. I didn’t understand why a lot of people were straying from exploring what they want to do. Nothing would have developed had that not been a very mutually upsetting thing.
ALTMAN: I agree.
PERRY: We took two people who don’t keep up with each other at all. There’s no sense of the modern connectivity. There’s a part in the movie where my character says he went on a vacation with the parents without Carlen’s character. And it’s not like, “Yeah, I saw those pictures. I know about that.” It’s like, we don’t talk, I don’t know what you’re doing, and I don’t care.
BOZZONE: One thing that’s funny, but that I also thought was cool or admirable is that J.R. has these big dreams [of being a news anchor], and even though she doesn’t necessarily have a plan, she has guts. So when she sees the news anchor, she goes over to talk to her. Some people have these secret ambitions that they wouldn’t tell anyone.
ALTMAN: Totally. In real life, I get scared to ask for help. I would never go up to somebody who is famous at a restaurant, and be like hey, can you help me out, but I think I secretly wish I could do that. And I secretly worry that I am untalented. So the character J.R. always, to my mind, represents my worst fear of someone who’s like, “Help me,” but doesn’t have anything to show for her loudness.
BOZZONE: There’s a quick shot of her resume, and one of her only performing credits is as a “stoic tree” in The Nutcracker.
ALTMAN: Yeah, in third grade or something. [Bozzone laughs] Exactly. Thanks for noticing.
PERRY: We both felt that the motivations of Carlen’s character speak for us personally. The motivations of my character speak to the more rational fear that we might benefit from having. We don’t actually have full-time jobs or —
ALTMAN: A sense of stability.
PERRY: J.R., to a somewhat funny fault, lives without any shred of safety net, shame, or dignity. That’s the most far extreme of what we believe in. And my character lives with absolute shame and fear.
BOZZONE: How did you relate to this character? He seems to be the opposite of how you are.
PERRY: We split up our feelings on young people into both of the characters. I thought if I didn’t give the dissenting opinion my face and voice, it would come across as condescending. If I had to explain it to anyone, it would have come across as if this character is a joke, his life is a joke, and we’re making fun of him—and that’s not what we wanted. If it were me, I could bring my own insecurities to the character and create a more balanced portrayal of why this character wasn’t pursuing some form of expression.
BOZZONE: Did you set out from the beginning to make it a comedy?
ALTMAN: I think so, yeah.
PERRY: First of all, I thought that the story was going to have so much anger and so much dark, hateful disappointment and resentment in it that if there were no jokes than people wouldn’t be able to watch it. My feelings on this matter and on people like this aren’t really funny. But I wanted to present this story that does mean something to me, and is something that I view as nothing short of an epidemic of malaise amongst young people, and turn that into something that you could laugh at. I thought to make something that was even the slightest bit entertaining it would have to be full of jokes.
BOZZONE: There are jokes, but I also found it powerful — and dark. I think you hook people with the fact that it’s a comedy, it’s beautifully shot, and you guys look like you could be in a French New Wave movie. But in the first maybe 15 or 20 minutes, J.R. makes a joke [to Colin], I can tell you’ve been molested, you’re kind of the type. And your character is so sad that you wonder, is that true?
PERRY: I thought it was important to front-load an admittedly short movie with something that’s easy to watch and makes people comfortable: Back-and-forth insults and dialogues and jokes and stuff like that will get people interested. Cause if you start off with two people who are already incredibly depressed and miserable, then there’s no comedy and there’s no entertainment, and no one’s gonna follow you to the end. And shortly thereafter the situation gets to the point where it’s like, this is completely uncomfortable to watch. What’s happening with these characters is not funny anymore because they’re both actually really sad and really not happy with where they are.
BOZZONE: Near the end of the movie, there’s a scene where J.R. delivers a long monologue. How did you come up with it?
PERRY: It was always part of the original outline. It was written and rewritten.
BOZZONE: But who wrote it? Both of you?
ALTMAN: He wrote it mostly. [laughs]
PERRY: You were very quick to point that out just now — you washed your hands of any responsibility.
ALTMAN: No, no, no, I thought you’d want that!
PERRY: — No, no, no —
BOZZONE: — No, no, no —
ALTMAN: I think it was a joint effort. About 90 percent of it is written, 10 percent is improvised. I remember saying something about how everyone goes to sleep at night. I don’t know what that really had to do with, but it’s just something I think about. I’m really bad at writing dialogue, whereas that’s something Alex brings to the table. I was worried I wouldn’t be able to memorize it. Thankfully, we only needed to shoot one take.
BOZZONE: Alex, I read that you had a long monologue near the end in Impolex too.
PERRY: I know, it’s my thing.
YEPES: Well, was that inspired by any other movie?
PERRY: The first movie that I saw when I was working on Impolex that had that in it was Last Tango in Paris [1972], which has these scenes that shows four, five minute shots of Marlon Brando talking, talking, talking. They’re major bursts of information that are incredibly helpful to understanding the character’s motivations, which is important because his behavior is inappropriate. But the biggest influence for me is Philip Roth’s novels, which have not been successfully adapted into movies. They’ve been putting them out for 50 years, and they’ve only made four movies, and two of them are definitely bad.
ALTMAN: I’m related to Philip Roth, but I’ve actually never read any of his work.
PERRY: We checked that out. It’s legit. But his books are unadaptable because they’re 100 percent about language and how that relates to the private lives of the characters. Using language in the way that he does—that’s what novels are for and that’s why he’s the best novelist. But using language like that in a film is risky and that was something I thought we should do. Spiritually and thematically, I thought it was the most appropriate way to let characters have their say.
BOZZONE: I want to hear more about how you wrote the script together. How did you do that?
ALTMAN: We met every week in my horrible apartment and talked about ideas that we wanted to accomplish. I’ve always wanted to make a movie about people in their twenties, not in a mumblecore way, but with this feeling of isolation. There are certain things that I wanted to be in a movie and there were certain things that Alex wanted to be in the movie, and we sat with pads of paper, and combined them.
BOZZONE: Like what? What things did you want in the movie?
ALTMAN: Random lines. Stuff from my stand-up that I thought Alex had appreciated. One was like, I want to let my bangs grow out, but then how will people know that I’m the type of girl that like music and art and cultural things?
BOZZONE: That line got a big laugh at the press screening.
ALTMAN: Awesome. Thank you, I’m glad to hear it.
BOZZONE: One question that I’m sure you’re getting a lot is how much of the film was improvised.
PERRY: I feel like people who ask that — not that it’s a stupid question — don’t understand editing. The structure of the first half-hour of the movie is screwball comedy-esque. And the amount of set-up, punch line, joke, insult was very tightly scripted and very, very tightly edited. Because otherwise none of those jokes would land — you need to edit something in order for there to be that type of repartee.
BOZZONE: What are some of your favorite comedies?
PERRY: The only comedy films that I thought about for the impetus for making this movie or casting myself in it were Jerry Lewis’s. Not in the sense that I’m falling out of closets and I’m trying to balance plates while they’re covered in food. But to me, there’s something provocative and really courageous about his mentality and absolute unchained ego in writing, directing, producing his own films where he’s playing 3, 4, or 8 characters. That, to me, is one of the most brilliant expressions of comedic id ever.
BOZZONE: So Alex, it sounds like you were going to be the brother from the beginning. Had you acted before?
PERRY: Never.
BOZZONE: Really?
PERRY: I had never done anything. Carlen has much more experience.
BOZZONE: Carlen, had you ever done plays?
ALTMAN: No, I’m really bad at memorizing things. My mom is an artist-slash-theatrical agent, and so sometimes she’ll send me on auditions and I’ve never gotten anything my whole life, except for a George Foreman infomercial. That’s the only thing I’ve ever gotten.
BOZZONE: [laughs] That’s awesome.
ALTMAN: Thank you!
BOZZONE: How old were you?
ALTMAN: It was like…four years ago! [Bozzone and Altman laugh] But my mom pulled the strings so I could be in it.
BOZZONE: So how old were you when your mom started sending you on auditions?
ALTMAN: I was JonBenét Ramsey’s age…
BOZZONE: [laughs] How old was that?
ALTMAN: No, I don’t know. Twelve? Twelve to 18. And I went to LaGuardia, which is a high school of the performing arts, but I went for visual art — I did drawing and watercolor — not acting. Being in a school where everyone was singing Rent [1994] was so horrible. [laughs] Our house would have all these résumés all over the floor cause my mom worked from home, so I would look at all these horrible faces of people who really did have resumes that said like “stoic tree” as their one credential, trying to be like, Look at me! Come to my showcase in Hoboken. I felt bad that my mom had to deal with that. I never wanted to be like an actor-actor — I don’t think I could do a movie that I don’t have any creative involvement with, which is why it was fun working with Lena [Dunham] — she really appreciated my sensibility. And Alex too. But I admire actual actors.
BOZZONE: Like who? Do you have favorite actors or performances?
ALTMAN: I really like Cameron Diaz in Being John Malkovich [1999] where she’s the weird character with pets. I just saw that recently for the first time. That was the first thing that I’d seen her do that I thought was really good. But I don’t necessarily think of her as any sort of inspiration! [laughs]
BOZZONE: Alex, what about you?
PERRY: Vincent Gallo is a hero. I think that The Brown Bunny [2003] is probably the best movie of the last ten years and that Buffalo 66 [1998] is a towering masterpiece of anger.
ALTMAN: I’ve never seen it.
PERRY: That movie’s about a guy and a girl who hate each other and go on a short trip, so I definitely thought about that, specifically the way he treats Christina Ricci in that movie, which is, I need you here, but I’m going to treat you as terribly as possible. He’s always hilarious. He’s one of my favorite comedians, and I’m sure he would agree [that he’s a comedian]. But yeah, he’s a hero, as far as acting goes. I hope we did his sensibilities justice because he’s very important to me.
BOZZONE: Carlen, what did you study at Oberlin?
ALTMAN: Psychology was my major.
BOZZONE: That’s interesting. That’s pretty funny, you know?
ALTMAN: Is it?
BOZZONE: The comedian that majored in psychology.
ALTMAN: Well, I think most comedians are depressed, so I majored in psychology in like a self-help way.
BOZZONE: Are you depressed?
ALTMAN: Yeah, totally. [laughs] Not now, though—I’m not anymore. But I think that majoring in psychology is more of an example of me not knowing what to do with my life, so I might as well do something practical in a self-help way, rather than in a job way—cause I still don’t know what I want to do.
BOZZONE: This film is about a very dysfunctional brother-sister relationship. Do you guys have brothers or sisters?
PERRY: Um, on the record, no. And you can print that.
ALTMAN: I have a half-sister, who I’ve only met five times. She’s like 20 years older than me. So no, I don’t have any siblings. I always wanted one. I had a lot of pets instead.
BOZZONE: Alex, I saw that on your Twitter account you thanked the audience members who participated in the Q&A at the Chicago Underground Film Festival for not asking what the title of the film means. What does it mean?
PERRY: The short answer is basically this: At some point when I became interested in film, I asked my parents what was the name of the first movie I ever saw in my life. They gave me an answer, and I accepted it, and then like five years later, I was like, IMDb’s a thing, I should look that movie up, and it turns out no such movie with that title had ever existed. And I was like, well, that’s weird, I’ve spent most of my adolescence believing in something and now, all of the sudden, that something that I believed in turns out to not be real. And the title was The Color Wheel. And I was like, well, if no one’s ever used that title before, and to me, that title means something that I thought was real in my childhood that turned out not to be real, then I’m gonna use that. If I look at my favorite movies or Philip Roth books like The Anatomy Lesson [1983] or The Ghost Writer [1979], the syntax of the title is very important. I think the title spiritually fits with the type of story I want it to be. But it has very little to do with the actual movie and no one will know that unless they ask me.
June 17, 2011
A briefer version of this conversation ran on interviewmagazine.com.
